Changing Result After Card is Played  

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MikeTheRed
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Joined:12 months  ago
Posts: 173
10/07/2017 11:55 am  

Example:

Swing roll results in a Strikeout.

Defense plays Crowd On Its Feet.

Offense plays Deja Vu to reroll the swing, making the result no longer a K.

We played it that Crowd... stays on anyway.


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Ahrensku
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Joined:11 months  ago
Posts: 108
11/07/2017 10:13 am  

On this note.  Can you play Overruled if the result doesn't change (i.e. the offense plays Deja vu and rolls the exact same number).  I would think yes, but I'm not 100% sure.


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CommunitySalad
Online League Champion
Joined:9 months  ago
Posts: 191
11/07/2017 3:22 pm  

I would say it stays on because the card simply says "Play after a K"


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rsm162000
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Posts: 217
12/07/2017 10:40 am  
Posted by: MikeTheRed

Example:

Swing roll results in a Strikeout.

Defense plays Crowd On Its Feet.

Offense plays Deja Vu to reroll the swing, making the result no longer a K.

We played it that Crowd... stays on anyway.

My interpretation is the same. Rule 3.9.A. allows the defense to play a card first.  Defense plays Crowd On Its Feet, and resolves the ability on the card.  Offense then plays Deja Vu, which re-rolls the swing.  Regardless of the result of the re-roll, Crowd On Its Feet was already played and resolved.  The only real difference would be what result is recorded on the scorecard for that plate appearance (if using an expanded scorecard).

There is no mention of a "stack" in this game (similar to Magic the Gathering), so one must assume that a card is resolved completely before the next card is played and resolved.  A confirmation/clarification by the Clutch Team wouldn't hurt here though.


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MikeTheRed
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Posts: 173
12/07/2017 11:36 am  

The closest thing we have to a stack or hold button on playing strategies are for substitutions and then a weird line about changing outcomes:

B. Substitutions
The Manager on Defense may make a pitching change after a Batter has entered the Batter’s Box. The Manager on Offense may use a Pinch Hitter if such a substitution has occurred. Any Pitcher entering the game must face at least (1) Batter. A Batter has officially entered the game after entering the Batting Order/Batter’s Box, but can be removed at any time without having had an At-Bat.
• If the Manager on Offense plays a Strategy Card before the Pitch, a pitching change may still be made, but he may put that Strategy Card back in his Hand.
• If the Manager on Defense plays a Strategy Card before the Pitch, a Pinch Hitter may still be used, but he must put that Strategy Card back in his Hand.

3.10. Changing Results
Many Strategy Cards allow a Manager to change or potentially change a result. These results are outcomes from at-bats, defensive throws, and defensive plays. In order for a changed result to occur, the outcome must first be decided, and then a Manager plays a card to affect and successfully change it.
• Stadium Cards’ effects on the game are NOT considered changing a result
• When attempting to change a result, all factors from the original result remain constant

The "back in your hand" part from the Substitutions section is the only thing that gave me any pause about the whole "I played this when it was a K but then it wasn't a K anymore" scenario. Obviously I'm looking at apples and oranges but they're both still fruit.


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ClutchJordan
Clutch Creator Admin
Joined:12 months  ago
Posts: 388
12/07/2017 10:40 pm  

My initial reaction is to say the card goes back in your hand.

You got to think of it like this.  The final result, after all cards have been played, is the only one that really happened.  In this example the K never actually happened.

Again if he re-rolled and then got a K again, you could play Crowd On Its Feet.  But you wouldn't be able to play Overruled.  There was no change to the actual result - a K.  Doesn't matter which chart it comes from either.

Business Development/Gameplay & Balance for Clutch Cards


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rsm162000
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Joined:11 months  ago
Posts: 217
13/07/2017 10:40 am  
Posted by: ClutchJordan

My initial reaction is to say the card goes back in your hand.

You got to think of it like this.  The final result, after all cards have been played, is the only one that really happened.  In this example the K never actually happened.

Again if he re-rolled and then got a K again, you could play Crowd On Its Feet.  But you wouldn't be able to play Overruled.  There was no change to the actual result - a K.  Doesn't matter which chart it comes from either.

So any time the offense responds to a defensive card play that changes a result, the offensive card takes priority and resolves first, thus returning the defensive card to its manager's hand?  If thats the case, I think the rulebook could use some clarification, especially since you're not gonna see the "back in the hand" statement unless you're dealing with a substitution, which wasn't the case with this example.

I think this example would be a prime addition to Section 5 of the rulebook.


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Ahrensku
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Joined:11 months  ago
Posts: 108
13/07/2017 8:49 pm  

I look at it different Jordan.  The order of play matters here. The defense plays first. When the defense plays, the result is a strikeout. Then the offense plays and changes it. I think it might give the offense too much power by allowing them to go second and essentially know what's in the defenses' hand. 

Look at it this way. The defense could play fired up to draw 2 cards. The offense could technically play instant replay to make the defense put their card back in their hand. I don't think that's fair or the intention. 

Or you have a HR and the defense plays Hung One  when they reshuffle they get Highway Robbery (which is why they played the card)  then the play it and the result turns into a FB  technically they get Hung One back in their hand because it wasn't a HR anymore.

I took this as an order of operations. When the defense plays the card the result is current. Then it changes afterwards. But when it was the defenses' turn their card mattered and was valid. 


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skotothalamos
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Posts: 14
25/08/2017 2:58 pm  

This is why Showdown had two different timing wordings for playing cards.

ON A RESULT: the result is in flux. All the cards that can change the result are played here. (i.e Turn On It. Play on any out result. If the pitcher is LHP and the batter is R or S, reroll the swing.)

AFTER A RESULT: the result has been decided. All the cards that capitalize off of a result are played here. (i.e. Insult to Injury. Play after a SO result. Look at your opponent's hand. Choose and discard 1 card.)

This (theoretically) kept things clean so that all the ON cards got played until a final result was decided, then all the AFTER cards got played based on what actually happened. I can't tell you the number of times we had to correct players who wanted to play Insult to Injury before the offense even had a chance to reroll the swing... even at Nationals. So, while the rules structure was there, it wasn't obvious even to top-level players.

However, it might be worth looking into for Clutch Baseball 2018 to avoid these sorts of "uh, i guess put your card back in your hand?" kludge rulings.


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ClutchJordan
Clutch Creator Admin
Joined:12 months  ago
Posts: 388
25/08/2017 4:19 pm  

Hey guys we're doing a fine-comb look through the rulebook and adding some things that are needed before the tournament.  This is high on our list so we'll have a concrete answer soon.

Business Development/Gameplay & Balance for Clutch Cards


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KC
 KC
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Joined:4 months  ago
Posts: 83
01/09/2017 2:39 pm  

Will this result in an updated rulebook or tournament-only rules?

...Forever Royal...


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